1 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:21,830 [Music] 2 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:42,370 explore the bazaar or e-ticket ride into 3 00:00:47,590 --> 00:00:44,290 the world of the paranormal 4 00:00:51,900 --> 00:00:47,600 strap yourself in as we traverse the 5 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:51,910 universe exploring the unexplained UFO s 6 00:01:00,490 --> 00:00:56,330 ghosts Lost Worlds cryptozoology waters 7 00:01:04,960 --> 00:01:00,500 as well as other dimensions it's time to 8 00:01:07,210 --> 00:01:04,970 take back the night now your 9 00:01:12,960 --> 00:01:07,220 electrifying hosts of exploring the 10 00:01:19,090 --> 00:01:16,960 hey Tim what's with the Jim Dandy garb 11 00:01:22,150 --> 00:01:19,100 looks like you're gonna step out on 12 00:01:25,150 --> 00:01:22,160 Broadway - you know how attend some sort 13 00:01:26,230 --> 00:01:25,160 of formal affair well thanks for the 14 00:01:28,719 --> 00:01:26,240 compliment pal 15 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:28,729 but actually on my way to a reunion of 16 00:01:35,499 --> 00:01:31,850 teenage ufologist you got to go back to 17 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:35,509 the mid 1960s there was Rick hilberg 18 00:01:41,650 --> 00:01:38,930 gene Steinberg Allen Greenfield and our 19 00:01:44,230 --> 00:01:41,660 guest tonight Dave Halperin we all met 20 00:01:46,809 --> 00:01:44,240 each other through the pages of Ray 21 00:01:49,779 --> 00:01:46,819 Palmer's flying saucers magazine he had 22 00:01:51,309 --> 00:01:49,789 a column in their flying saucer news we 23 00:01:54,100 --> 00:01:51,319 started exchanging mimeograph 24 00:01:57,400 --> 00:01:54,110 newsletters and organizing conferences 25 00:02:02,050 --> 00:01:57,410 we became friends over the years well 26 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:02,060 that's right there was the the Congress 27 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:05,410 of scientific ufologist first held in 28 00:02:10,719 --> 00:02:07,610 Cleveland I think or around that time 29 00:02:11,550 --> 00:02:10,729 hey I see you even trimmed your hair for 30 00:02:13,839 --> 00:02:11,560 the occasion 31 00:02:16,570 --> 00:02:13,849 and I didn't want to give that 32 00:02:18,100 --> 00:02:16,580 impression I've over Sid Meier's the 33 00:02:20,140 --> 00:02:18,110 space brothers known as or thought and 34 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:20,150 he had down his hair down to his 35 00:02:24,430 --> 00:02:22,610 shoulders if I remember the photo still 36 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:24,440 in my collection taking a gym Mosley's 37 00:02:31,540 --> 00:02:28,610 UFO conference in New York City in 1967 38 00:02:34,089 --> 00:02:31,550 okay well um you have fun 39 00:02:37,570 --> 00:02:34,099 say hello to everyone while I head out 40 00:02:41,229 --> 00:02:37,580 to the case er our studios with Tina for 41 00:02:42,970 --> 00:02:41,239 tonight's tale of wonder I think I think 42 00:02:45,130 --> 00:02:42,980 we do have a wig around here somewhere 43 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:45,140 well you want to have your hair long 44 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:49,730 again let me fix the blonde one if the 45 00:02:58,210 --> 00:02:51,170 blonde was fine one 46 00:03:01,839 --> 00:02:58,220 okay I can't find it too well well it'll 47 00:03:05,250 --> 00:03:01,849 it'll it'll do it'll do but how are you 48 00:03:09,820 --> 00:03:05,260 tonight out there in Jasper Indiana I'm 49 00:03:14,140 --> 00:03:09,830 doing fantastic Tim were were hard at 50 00:03:18,610 --> 00:03:14,150 work with the the new Ashtar biography 51 00:03:22,509 --> 00:03:18,620 oh my goodness yes yes soon soon be hid 52 00:03:27,460 --> 00:03:22,519 in a bookstore near you and and followed 53 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:27,470 that pretty quickly by a book on area 51 54 00:03:32,860 --> 00:03:30,530 that I've been actually meaning to put 55 00:03:34,750 --> 00:03:32,870 together for a long time now and what 56 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:34,760 with all the the people expected out 57 00:03:43,110 --> 00:03:40,010 there at the pearly gates of area 51 58 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:43,120 it's a it'll be another timely a book so 59 00:03:49,770 --> 00:03:46,610 we're keeping to our two or three books 60 00:03:53,380 --> 00:03:49,780 a month even though I'm semi-retired 61 00:03:55,630 --> 00:03:53,390 anyway Tim go ahead and tell us about 62 00:03:58,720 --> 00:03:55,640 our wonderful guests for the evening who 63 00:04:00,849 --> 00:03:58,730 I have known since the days of teenage 64 00:04:03,099 --> 00:04:00,859 ufology I'm not sure there are any more 65 00:04:07,330 --> 00:04:03,109 teenagers in ufology anymore and I don't 66 00:04:09,940 --> 00:04:07,340 think that any of us it could consider 67 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:09,950 ourselves the teenagers although I do 68 00:04:19,330 --> 00:04:13,970 consider myself a bright 30-something or 69 00:04:22,029 --> 00:04:19,340 whatever anyway well Tim I'm really 70 00:04:24,909 --> 00:04:22,039 happy to say that tonight our guest is 71 00:04:28,150 --> 00:04:24,919 David Halperin now back in the 1960s 72 00:04:30,310 --> 00:04:28,160 David was a teenage you apologist is 73 00:04:32,890 --> 00:04:30,320 like yourself later he became a 74 00:04:34,930 --> 00:04:32,900 professor of Religious Studies at the 75 00:04:37,540 --> 00:04:34,940 University of North Carolina at Chapel 76 00:04:40,510 --> 00:04:37,550 Hill where he taught until his 77 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:40,520 retirement in 2000 his specialty 78 00:04:46,330 --> 00:04:43,490 religious traditions of heavenly ascent 79 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:46,340 and otherworldly journeys he's the 80 00:04:51,629 --> 00:04:48,530 author of five books on Jewish mysticism 81 00:04:55,390 --> 00:04:51,639 and assonance ism and a novel journey 82 00:04:59,200 --> 00:04:55,400 journal of a UFO investigator published 83 00:05:02,930 --> 00:04:59,210 in 2011 book by Viking press his 84 00:05:05,270 --> 00:05:02,940 non-fiction book intimate alien 85 00:05:07,550 --> 00:05:05,280 hidden story of the UFO will be 86 00:05:11,210 --> 00:05:07,560 published hopefully next year by 87 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:11,220 Stanford University Press so uh I 88 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:13,530 contain that also he blogs on UFOs 89 00:05:18,380 --> 00:05:15,810 religion and other subjects dear to his 90 00:05:22,340 --> 00:05:18,390 heart and his website which is David 91 00:05:25,250 --> 00:05:22,350 Halpern dotnet well Dave you know it is 92 00:05:29,830 --> 00:05:25,260 good to talk to you we haven't spoken in 93 00:05:33,980 --> 00:05:29,840 a while and when do we fir first that 94 00:05:38,020 --> 00:05:33,990 hookup it would have been one about 1966 95 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:38,030 or 67 oh I think it was even before that 96 00:05:47,690 --> 00:05:42,330 62 or 63 oh Jesus Vica would through 97 00:05:52,570 --> 00:05:47,700 Edie Babcock oh yes now ed Babcock had 98 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:52,580 the njaa P it was the New Jersey 99 00:05:59,750 --> 00:05:56,010 Association on aerial phenomena out of a 100 00:06:04,010 --> 00:05:59,760 Kendall apart and he used to have little 101 00:06:06,620 --> 00:06:04,020 little meetings there at the VFW a post 102 00:06:09,290 --> 00:06:06,630 and we would come out and salute the 103 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:09,300 flag and then give an hour or so a talk 104 00:06:16,250 --> 00:06:12,450 on the on the topic yeah I would I would 105 00:06:19,580 --> 00:06:16,260 have probably been maybe 15 or 16 at the 106 00:06:21,860 --> 00:06:19,590 at the time I would I would say well 107 00:06:23,870 --> 00:06:21,870 what what got you interested in the in 108 00:06:26,840 --> 00:06:23,880 the subject I mean did you have an 109 00:06:34,130 --> 00:06:26,850 experience were you abducted or have sex 110 00:06:40,010 --> 00:06:34,140 with an alien into a picked up a bug of 111 00:06:43,850 --> 00:06:40,020 some sort no I said it started in the 112 00:06:47,659 --> 00:06:43,860 fall of 1960 when I was 12 going on 13 113 00:06:52,190 --> 00:06:47,669 and a friend of mine said about writing 114 00:06:53,750 --> 00:06:52,200 a paper for a science class and we were 115 00:06:58,190 --> 00:06:53,760 gonna write about life on other planets 116 00:07:00,500 --> 00:06:58,200 and as part of studying life on other 117 00:07:04,750 --> 00:07:00,510 planets we decided to read about flying 118 00:07:08,140 --> 00:07:04,760 saucers so we went to the library and we 119 00:07:10,730 --> 00:07:08,150 looked up in the card catalog which I 120 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:10,740 imagine your younger listeners have 121 00:07:16,460 --> 00:07:14,970 never seen a card catalog we do doing 122 00:07:20,030 --> 00:07:16,470 decimals do we 123 00:07:24,230 --> 00:07:20,040 decimals yeah I can't remember if we 124 00:07:26,870 --> 00:07:24,240 used to eat decimal or or the the 125 00:07:29,630 --> 00:07:26,880 Library of Congress classification but 126 00:07:31,820 --> 00:07:29,640 anyway I went home that night with gray 127 00:07:36,580 --> 00:07:31,830 Barker's they knew too much about flying 128 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:36,590 whoa you started out on the right track 129 00:07:45,020 --> 00:07:41,250 well it was the track that set my life 130 00:07:47,030 --> 00:07:45,030 in the course that a talk that I took 131 00:07:51,140 --> 00:07:47,040 the book home and I started reading it 132 00:07:53,740 --> 00:07:51,150 and pretty soon I was so scared I wanted 133 00:07:57,350 --> 00:07:53,750 to hide under the bed 134 00:08:00,230 --> 00:07:57,360 shall we tell your listeners what what I 135 00:08:01,460 --> 00:08:00,240 would have read about in that book yes 136 00:08:04,790 --> 00:08:01,470 go ahead 137 00:08:08,690 --> 00:08:04,800 well it starts out with a seven-foot 138 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:08,700 monster worse than Frankenstein who 139 00:08:18,770 --> 00:08:13,970 terrifies seven West Virginia people a 140 00:08:21,620 --> 00:08:18,780 woman and some sir some boys so badly 141 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:21,630 that as Barker says they had to clean 142 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:25,530 one of them like a baby and from there 143 00:08:32,870 --> 00:08:29,010 it gets into the seriously scary shaver 144 00:08:38,050 --> 00:08:32,880 mystery of the evil beings that dwell 145 00:08:41,209 --> 00:08:38,060 under the ground in here oh yeah zero 146 00:08:44,270 --> 00:08:41,219 and have commerce with evil beings from 147 00:08:47,180 --> 00:08:44,280 other planets which explains the flying 148 00:08:49,900 --> 00:08:47,190 saucers but then we get to the heart of 149 00:08:53,630 --> 00:08:49,910 the book which is the bender mystery 150 00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:53,640 well then what was it that Albert K 151 00:09:01,130 --> 00:08:56,450 bender of Bridgeport Connecticut 152 00:09:05,390 --> 00:09:01,140 discovered in the fall of 1953 that 153 00:09:11,079 --> 00:09:05,400 brought three men in black knocking at 154 00:09:15,050 --> 00:09:11,089 his door to fry twelve into silence 155 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:15,060 supposedly he came across the answer to 156 00:09:21,050 --> 00:09:18,290 the UFO mystery through some 157 00:09:23,900 --> 00:09:21,060 correspondence and immediately it shut 158 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:23,910 down his his 159 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:27,450 and put a halt to hit the publication of 160 00:09:33,530 --> 00:09:30,450 his little magazine I 161 00:09:37,220 --> 00:09:33,540 was called space review or space view 162 00:09:41,030 --> 00:09:37,230 yeah and for many years would not talk 163 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:41,040 to anybody about his experience but of 164 00:09:48,110 --> 00:09:44,130 course the legend of the men in black 165 00:09:51,079 --> 00:09:48,120 grew and grew and grew until it was 166 00:09:54,139 --> 00:09:51,089 picked up by Hollywood and made it into 167 00:09:56,240 --> 00:09:54,149 a movie franchise not exactly the same 168 00:09:59,329 --> 00:09:56,250 experiences of course that Albert a 169 00:10:03,620 --> 00:09:59,339 bender went through but still the the 170 00:10:05,590 --> 00:10:03,630 name has lived on in in legend so how 171 00:10:08,030 --> 00:10:05,600 did you do how did you do on that 172 00:10:10,220 --> 00:10:08,040 particular review in school do you 173 00:10:15,710 --> 00:10:10,230 remember your grade I don't think we 174 00:10:18,829 --> 00:10:15,720 ever rode it by well we it was a paper 175 00:10:21,110 --> 00:10:18,839 for extra credit I think yes well you 176 00:10:24,530 --> 00:10:21,120 know it that happened to be the book 177 00:10:27,379 --> 00:10:24,540 that I picked as well I believe it was 178 00:10:31,009 --> 00:10:27,389 in the third or fourth grade to review 179 00:10:34,189 --> 00:10:31,019 and I actually got a b-minus I think 180 00:10:37,610 --> 00:10:34,199 that's the only B I ever got on anything 181 00:10:41,389 --> 00:10:37,620 and of course a Curie it curiously 182 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:41,399 enough gray Barker who was the author of 183 00:10:47,540 --> 00:10:43,890 the book was responsible for publishing 184 00:10:49,430 --> 00:10:47,550 my first a couple of works we're now up 185 00:10:51,710 --> 00:10:49,440 to like three hundred and nine titles 186 00:10:57,350 --> 00:10:51,720 that we've published and kind of 187 00:11:01,100 --> 00:10:57,360 initiated me into the UFO feel of the 188 00:11:03,439 --> 00:11:01,110 full-time as a as a writer and when he 189 00:11:05,900 --> 00:11:03,449 passed away we actually bought the last 190 00:11:10,850 --> 00:11:05,910 fifty copies from his estate of the 191 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:10,860 hardcover edition of Frank they knew too 192 00:11:16,220 --> 00:11:13,890 much about flying saucers so if that 193 00:11:18,290 --> 00:11:16,230 isn't they at turnaround I don't know 194 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:18,300 what is and I guess you could say that 195 00:11:23,180 --> 00:11:20,850 the book also had a pretty big impact of 196 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:23,190 influence not only on my life is 197 00:11:31,490 --> 00:11:27,410 certainly on my career it has to be 198 00:11:35,629 --> 00:11:31,500 probably one of the more titillating and 199 00:11:38,180 --> 00:11:35,639 and frightening books certainly if 200 00:11:40,490 --> 00:11:38,190 you're in your early teens that have 201 00:11:43,809 --> 00:11:40,500 ever been written on the subject so how 202 00:11:46,790 --> 00:11:43,819 did you progressed from there Dave well 203 00:11:51,829 --> 00:11:46,800 said I became convinced reading the book 204 00:11:54,170 --> 00:11:51,839 that UFOs existed they had to exist 205 00:11:58,009 --> 00:11:54,180 because otherwise what were the men in 206 00:12:00,769 --> 00:11:58,019 black trying to suppress so I believed 207 00:12:05,179 --> 00:12:00,779 in UFOs because I believed in the men in 208 00:12:10,150 --> 00:12:05,189 black but now we have to ask why did I 209 00:12:14,900 --> 00:12:10,160 believe in the men in black why did I 210 00:12:20,179 --> 00:12:14,910 read this surely rather fantastic and 211 00:12:24,050 --> 00:12:20,189 implausible book and let it set the 212 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:24,060 course for my adolescence and I thought 213 00:12:31,309 --> 00:12:26,250 about I spent many years thinking about 214 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:31,319 this and I think I have the answer which 215 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:35,730 was that I knew the men in black from 216 00:12:43,429 --> 00:12:40,410 personal experience what in what way 217 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:43,439 wait yeah yeah in what way yeah what do 218 00:12:50,900 --> 00:12:46,370 I mean by this and that is that in our 219 00:12:55,069 --> 00:12:50,910 rather ordinary looking little suburban 220 00:12:57,079 --> 00:12:55,079 house we had a dreadful secret just as 221 00:13:00,590 --> 00:12:57,089 awful as the secret of the flying 222 00:13:04,009 --> 00:13:00,600 saucers that been there supposedly 223 00:13:08,540 --> 00:13:04,019 discovered this secret was that my 224 00:13:12,530 --> 00:13:08,550 mother was slowly dying it was a secret 225 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:12,540 we couldn't talk about my father my 226 00:13:18,710 --> 00:13:15,569 mother and I all had to keep up the 227 00:13:21,910 --> 00:13:18,720 pretense that she was just a semi 228 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:21,920 invalid widow with a heart condition and 229 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:26,250 we would not face what we all knew to be 230 00:13:34,540 --> 00:13:29,610 true which is that her which was that 231 00:13:39,470 --> 00:13:34,550 her life was ebbing so the notion of 232 00:13:46,100 --> 00:13:39,480 three men in black who terrify you so 233 00:13:50,030 --> 00:13:46,110 much that you can't speak of some awful 234 00:13:53,809 --> 00:13:50,040 reality was something that made sense to 235 00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:53,819 me something that I knew from my 236 00:13:59,510 --> 00:13:56,010 personal experience 237 00:14:02,480 --> 00:13:59,520 but I had no idea not only how to put it 238 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:02,490 in words I had no idea even how to put 239 00:14:11,570 --> 00:14:06,930 it into images and grey Barker gave me 240 00:14:16,550 --> 00:14:11,580 the words and gray Barker gave me the 241 00:14:19,460 --> 00:14:16,560 images that is very Pro that is very 242 00:14:23,660 --> 00:14:19,470 profound ok but it's it's still quite a 243 00:14:28,970 --> 00:14:23,670 step from reading a book on the men in 244 00:14:30,970 --> 00:14:28,980 black and having it influenced you till 245 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:30,980 the point where you actually go out and 246 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:35,370 meet others who share the same rather 247 00:14:42,590 --> 00:14:40,410 unique and and peculiar belief system I 248 00:14:46,730 --> 00:14:42,600 mean certainly more so perhaps in those 249 00:14:52,700 --> 00:14:46,740 days than today how did you come upon 250 00:14:55,430 --> 00:14:52,710 all our mutual friends who we've grown 251 00:14:58,850 --> 00:14:55,440 up with I guess over the years Rick 252 00:15:02,260 --> 00:14:58,860 hilberg and Ed beeble and hi Jean 253 00:15:04,940 --> 00:15:02,270 Steinberg and and a few of the others 254 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:04,950 more or less the way you described from 255 00:15:12,530 --> 00:15:08,850 I don't know that I that I learned about 256 00:15:15,350 --> 00:15:12,540 you or about Ed Babcock from Ray 257 00:15:17,870 --> 00:15:15,360 Palmer's flying saucers but from some 258 00:15:21,620 --> 00:15:17,880 publication like that yeah you see its 259 00:15:24,830 --> 00:15:21,630 face magazine oh yeah and that I was a 260 00:15:29,270 --> 00:15:24,840 boy with a mission my mission was to 261 00:15:33,500 --> 00:15:29,280 uncover the secret of the flying discs 262 00:15:37,220 --> 00:15:33,510 which I now know to translate into the 263 00:15:40,790 --> 00:15:37,230 secret of the alien that had invaded our 264 00:15:41,450 --> 00:15:40,800 airspace an alien had invaded our 265 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:41,460 airspace 266 00:15:53,650 --> 00:15:49,650 the aliens name was death okay so now 267 00:15:58,160 --> 00:15:53,660 you you were one of the original 268 00:16:01,760 --> 00:15:58,170 organizers or on the board of directors 269 00:16:03,290 --> 00:16:01,770 of the Congress of scientific ufologists 270 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:03,300 I think that's what it was called in 271 00:16:08,090 --> 00:16:04,770 those days all right 272 00:16:09,590 --> 00:16:08,100 yeah that came a little bit later yeah I 273 00:16:12,740 --> 00:16:09,600 wasn't I wasn't really one of 274 00:16:15,889 --> 00:16:12,750 the organizers I was I was an attendee 275 00:16:20,449 --> 00:16:15,899 that was recognized really by our 276 00:16:24,590 --> 00:16:20,459 Greenfield and Rick hilberg and Alan al 277 00:16:26,740 --> 00:16:24,600 Manac yeah al Manac he would see he was 278 00:16:29,689 --> 00:16:26,750 fairly prominent but not one of the 279 00:16:33,019 --> 00:16:29,699 major organizers that the three 280 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:33,029 organizers were were were Ricky hilberg 281 00:16:39,410 --> 00:16:35,730 and Al Greenfield and the late Dale 282 00:16:42,620 --> 00:16:39,420 Redick yeah that's correct yes yes and I 283 00:16:45,620 --> 00:16:42,630 guess Jim Jim Mosley came along at some 284 00:16:47,540 --> 00:16:45,630 point there early on because I remember 285 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:47,550 I didn't attend the first thick 286 00:16:52,999 --> 00:16:50,730 conference they were being held pretty 287 00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:53,009 much in Cleveland in those days but we 288 00:16:59,629 --> 00:16:56,970 had a caravan of cars caravan being 289 00:17:02,780 --> 00:16:59,639 maybe two or three cars leaving from the 290 00:17:07,610 --> 00:17:02,790 New York New Jersey area driving out to 291 00:17:09,740 --> 00:17:07,620 I believe it was Parma Ohio which would 292 00:17:14,539 --> 00:17:09,750 have been there one of the or still is 293 00:17:17,059 --> 00:17:14,549 one of the suburbs of Cleveland and you 294 00:17:20,120 --> 00:17:17,069 know we were taken even despite our a 295 00:17:23,449 --> 00:17:20,130 rather tender age at a time I do think 296 00:17:26,059 --> 00:17:23,459 we would treat it rather seriously by 297 00:17:29,299 --> 00:17:26,069 the media and and certainly we had the 298 00:17:32,870 --> 00:17:29,309 opportunity to appear on many a great 299 00:17:36,250 --> 00:17:32,880 local radio and TV shows there in the 300 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:36,260 Cleveland area and we pulled the quite a 301 00:17:44,299 --> 00:17:41,010 quite a few members of the public to 302 00:17:48,710 --> 00:17:44,309 attend the conferences now did you speak 303 00:17:52,190 --> 00:17:48,720 at any of those events yes not in 1964 304 00:17:57,080 --> 00:17:52,200 the first one yeah but in 1965 I did 305 00:18:00,350 --> 00:17:57,090 that I debated Eugene Steinberg about 306 00:18:03,649 --> 00:18:00,360 whether they were really a UFO had 307 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:03,659 landed in Glassboro New Jersey oh my 308 00:18:09,490 --> 00:18:06,210 goodness yes you remember the Glassboro 309 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:09,500 incident well I I remember it vaguely 310 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:11,730 why don't you give us a little detail 311 00:18:17,299 --> 00:18:14,010 now was that something that left some an 312 00:18:20,330 --> 00:18:17,309 impression in the in the ground yes 313 00:18:22,300 --> 00:18:20,340 there was a sort of a central crater and 314 00:18:25,300 --> 00:18:22,310 then three 315 00:18:29,250 --> 00:18:25,310 holes around it which apparently had 316 00:18:31,900 --> 00:18:29,260 been poked into the ground by a tripod 317 00:18:35,170 --> 00:18:31,910 mm-hmm now I do not want to keep your 318 00:18:38,290 --> 00:18:35,180 listeners in suspense we know we know 319 00:18:40,300 --> 00:18:38,300 exactly what the Glassboro UFO was it 320 00:18:43,030 --> 00:18:40,310 was a college student at Glassboro State 321 00:18:45,580 --> 00:18:43,040 College who dug the hole set off 322 00:18:49,390 --> 00:18:45,590 firecrackers or something in them and 323 00:18:51,700 --> 00:18:49,400 that's correct yes and then found a 324 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:51,710 couple of kids who were who were fishing 325 00:19:00,970 --> 00:18:54,890 the next day and said they had seen a 326 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:00,980 UFO land the the previous night and and 327 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:04,610 these were the impressions of it now 328 00:19:11,980 --> 00:19:07,490 it wasn't until January of 19 this 329 00:19:17,020 --> 00:19:11,990 happened in September of 1964 mm-hmm it 330 00:19:19,750 --> 00:19:17,030 wasn't until January of 1965 that it was 331 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:19,760 revealed that other that apparently the 332 00:19:25,390 --> 00:19:23,570 kid who had done this Oakes tried to 333 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:25,400 sell his story to a Philadelphia 334 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:28,490 newspaper and the Glassboro police 335 00:19:35,340 --> 00:19:32,090 caught him but in Paris and it was so 336 00:19:37,660 --> 00:19:35,350 obvious that it was a hoax that 337 00:19:40,750 --> 00:19:37,670 ufologists just dropped the whole thing 338 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:40,760 with with the exception of me I kept 339 00:19:48,330 --> 00:19:44,690 insisting it was for real and I'm afraid 340 00:19:55,270 --> 00:19:48,340 Jean Steinberg made mincemeat out of me 341 00:19:57,190 --> 00:19:55,280 at the at the 1965 Congress but what 342 00:20:00,460 --> 00:19:57,200 what is really interesting I mean it's 343 00:20:03,730 --> 00:20:00,470 been so thoroughly forgotten that we 344 00:20:06,490 --> 00:20:03,740 lose track of what a great deal of 345 00:20:11,590 --> 00:20:06,500 attention has got at the time 346 00:20:15,730 --> 00:20:11,600 wor radio had a little news news report 347 00:20:20,230 --> 00:20:15,740 on it dozens of newspapers in New Jersey 348 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:20,240 and Pennsylvania reported on it the 349 00:20:26,860 --> 00:20:24,650 night cap investigator your listeners 350 00:20:29,860 --> 00:20:26,870 probably don't remember nycap the 351 00:20:32,260 --> 00:20:29,870 national investigations committee we've 352 00:20:35,420 --> 00:20:32,270 mentioned he's mentioned we've mentioned 353 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:35,430 the group of many times over the year 354 00:20:41,210 --> 00:20:39,210 years certainly but you you know I think 355 00:20:44,420 --> 00:20:41,220 one of the the thing the reasons that 356 00:20:47,060 --> 00:20:44,430 that particular incident got so much 357 00:20:49,790 --> 00:20:47,070 attention over the ensuing years is that 358 00:20:52,910 --> 00:20:49,800 there were some legitimate incidents 359 00:20:54,590 --> 00:20:52,920 that did take place in New Jersey and 360 00:20:56,300 --> 00:20:54,600 the state of Pennsylvania 361 00:20:59,830 --> 00:20:56,310 there was of course the Waunakee 362 00:21:03,200 --> 00:20:59,840 reservoir sightings which seemed to be a 363 00:21:05,900 --> 00:21:03,210 pretty solid where this thing came down 364 00:21:07,790 --> 00:21:05,910 over the reservoir was seen by the 365 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:07,800 security and the local police and I 366 00:21:13,010 --> 00:21:10,890 think even the the mayor of the town and 367 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:13,020 then there's a lesser-known 368 00:21:18,590 --> 00:21:17,250 flap that took place around the same 369 00:21:24,950 --> 00:21:18,600 time I don't know whether it was a year 370 00:21:27,170 --> 00:21:24,960 after her so over the Oradell New Jersey 371 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:27,180 a reservoir which is very very difficult 372 00:21:35,270 --> 00:21:32,610 to find any real information on but New 373 00:21:41,570 --> 00:21:35,280 Jersey at one point it did get quite a 374 00:21:43,670 --> 00:21:41,580 few serious of sightings of UFOs and of 375 00:21:48,290 --> 00:21:43,680 course a Howard mentor who was a 376 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:48,300 frequent guest on the Long John show was 377 00:21:54,020 --> 00:21:50,970 discussing his supposed meetings with 378 00:21:55,900 --> 00:21:54,030 the extraterrestrials and his apple 379 00:21:59,330 --> 00:21:55,910 orchard behind his home there in 380 00:22:02,450 --> 00:21:59,340 Highbridge New Jersey there's no 381 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:02,460 question that that my home state did get 382 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:07,530 a fair amount of UFO attention were 383 00:22:13,850 --> 00:22:10,410 there any cases that you actually went 384 00:22:16,490 --> 00:22:13,860 out and investigated firsthand well the 385 00:22:19,070 --> 00:22:16,500 the Glassboro case which is yeah which 386 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:19,080 is how I was so utterly devoted to it I 387 00:22:27,830 --> 00:22:24,890 mean yes yes excuse me you tend to get a 388 00:22:30,260 --> 00:22:27,840 proprietary attachment to these cases I 389 00:22:33,350 --> 00:22:30,270 mean it was a wonderful adventure I was 390 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:33,360 16 years old I took a bus to 391 00:22:42,410 --> 00:22:35,970 Philadelphia and from Philadelphia out 392 00:22:45,650 --> 00:22:42,420 to glasper on I I came with really faked 393 00:22:47,990 --> 00:22:45,660 credential saying that I was a reporter 394 00:22:51,100 --> 00:22:48,000 for a Trenton radio station 395 00:22:54,140 --> 00:22:51,110 and at age 16 just marched into the 396 00:22:56,930 --> 00:22:54,150 police station and was was treated like 397 00:23:00,980 --> 00:22:56,940 a visiting dignitary I mean you remark 398 00:23:03,590 --> 00:23:00,990 on the incredible seriousness with which 399 00:23:07,010 --> 00:23:03,600 we were taken and I can remember that 400 00:23:09,980 --> 00:23:07,020 they they actually in a police car they 401 00:23:12,290 --> 00:23:09,990 drove me out to the landing site which 402 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:12,300 something like four thousand people had 403 00:23:19,940 --> 00:23:16,650 already visited and and I walked to the 404 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:19,950 site in rain which started out as a 405 00:23:29,090 --> 00:23:24,810 drizzle but we became a downpour and I 406 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:29,100 was I took photographs trying to imagine 407 00:23:33,710 --> 00:23:31,050 this was where an extraterrestrial 408 00:23:39,410 --> 00:23:33,720 vehicle had landed in search of soil 409 00:23:41,870 --> 00:23:39,420 samples and I was taken under wing by an 410 00:23:45,500 --> 00:23:41,880 absolutely lovely family in Glassboro 411 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:45,510 that brought me home for dinner well I 412 00:23:52,550 --> 00:23:48,930 know it was just a it was just an 413 00:23:54,590 --> 00:23:52,560 amazing adventure and I was going I was 414 00:23:56,990 --> 00:23:54,600 going to write a monograph about it as 415 00:23:58,700 --> 00:23:57,000 being one of the most important 416 00:24:00,410 --> 00:23:58,710 developments in ufology 417 00:24:02,030 --> 00:24:00,420 alright gentlemen I'm going to have to 418 00:24:04,130 --> 00:24:02,040 interrupt you here because we have to 419 00:24:05,330 --> 00:24:04,140 take our bottom of the hour break when 420 00:24:07,970 --> 00:24:05,340 we come back we'll continue our 421 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:07,980 conversation with Gloria Copeland right 422 00:24:23,650 --> 00:24:21,070 now back to exploring the bazaars with 423 00:24:26,950 --> 00:24:23,660 two of the most electrifying researchers 424 00:24:32,950 --> 00:24:26,960 in the Paranoid your hosts Timothy Becky 425 00:24:34,810 --> 00:24:32,960 Lee and tinsmiths welcome back to 426 00:24:38,350 --> 00:24:34,820 exploring the bazaar on Tim Schwarz 427 00:24:44,230 --> 00:24:38,360 tonight our guest is David Halperin and 428 00:24:49,020 --> 00:24:44,240 David why don't you tell us I know that 429 00:24:52,780 --> 00:24:49,030 like a lot of people who are UFO 430 00:24:54,850 --> 00:24:52,790 researchers that as a teenager you 431 00:24:57,190 --> 00:24:54,860 started out possibly with the idea that 432 00:24:59,350 --> 00:24:57,200 that UFOs could be you know 433 00:25:02,020 --> 00:24:59,360 nuts-and-bolts spaceships and that's 434 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:02,030 from other planets can you talk about 435 00:25:12,010 --> 00:25:07,250 how your your ideas have have changed 436 00:25:17,710 --> 00:25:12,020 and evolved over the years yeah we put 437 00:25:20,710 --> 00:25:17,720 it okay I'm gonna I've already kind of 438 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:20,720 hinted about this that the function of 439 00:25:30,910 --> 00:25:26,450 UFOs for me was to help me deal with my 440 00:25:35,650 --> 00:25:30,920 mother's impending death okay I like to 441 00:25:40,170 --> 00:25:35,660 think of UFOs in terms of the Greek myth 442 00:25:44,380 --> 00:25:40,180 of Perseus and Medusa that if Perseus 443 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:44,390 looks directly at Medusa who looks into 444 00:25:48,910 --> 00:25:45,170 her face 445 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:48,920 he's gonna be turned to stone but he can 446 00:25:58,710 --> 00:25:53,810 fight her if he looks at her only in a 447 00:26:02,200 --> 00:25:58,720 mirror I had to look death in the face 448 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:02,210 which I could not do without being 449 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:03,890 turned to stone 450 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:09,970 I used a mirror UFOs were my mirror 451 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:13,810 which was why I wanted so badly to 452 00:26:22,420 --> 00:26:18,290 believe in them now when I was 16 my 453 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:22,430 mother died and if what I've just said 454 00:26:27,799 --> 00:26:23,490 is true 455 00:26:31,820 --> 00:26:27,809 we would expect that the UFOs would lose 456 00:26:34,310 --> 00:26:31,830 their importance for me after her death 457 00:26:38,450 --> 00:26:34,320 that make sense so far 458 00:26:43,730 --> 00:26:38,460 yes and that is very much what happened 459 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:43,740 I became a ufologist through a sudden 460 00:26:53,630 --> 00:26:50,850 conversion reading grey Barker my exit 461 00:26:56,389 --> 00:26:53,640 from ufology or what I thought was my 462 00:26:58,570 --> 00:26:56,399 eggs from ufology that'll become clear 463 00:27:01,669 --> 00:26:58,580 in a moment that it was no such thing 464 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:01,679 but what I thought was my exit from 465 00:27:08,180 --> 00:27:05,570 ufology took place much more gradually 466 00:27:10,850 --> 00:27:08,190 there wasn't like I woke up one morning 467 00:27:13,909 --> 00:27:10,860 and said hey it's not true were not 468 00:27:16,940 --> 00:27:13,919 being visited from outer space it's just 469 00:27:20,690 --> 00:27:16,950 I sort of found I was interested in 470 00:27:23,779 --> 00:27:20,700 other things actually I found that was 471 00:27:29,120 --> 00:27:23,789 interested in girls which I might have 472 00:27:31,580 --> 00:27:29,130 put on ice before that and I decided 473 00:27:33,139 --> 00:27:31,590 that although UFOs certainly existed and 474 00:27:35,210 --> 00:27:33,149 were for certainly from outer space 475 00:27:37,909 --> 00:27:35,220 there was no way we could possibly 476 00:27:39,980 --> 00:27:37,919 figure out what they are so we might as 477 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:39,990 well devote ourselves to different 478 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:44,250 things and so I went to college I 479 00:27:52,610 --> 00:27:47,250 majored in Semitic Studies I learned 480 00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:52,620 Hebrew I began to research things like 481 00:28:00,380 --> 00:27:56,850 Ezekiel's visions hmm and things like 482 00:28:03,649 --> 00:28:00,390 ancient religious traditions of heavenly 483 00:28:06,700 --> 00:28:03,659 a sense and otherworldly journeys which 484 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:06,710 I was only very dimly aware at the time 485 00:28:18,169 --> 00:28:13,490 were ufology in a respectable disguise 486 00:28:20,299 --> 00:28:18,179 now in the course of this getting into 487 00:28:26,419 --> 00:28:20,309 Ezekiel getting into otherworldly 488 00:28:29,029 --> 00:28:26,429 journeys I met Jacques Vallee I was at 489 00:28:30,980 --> 00:28:29,039 the time living in California I was 490 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:30,990 doing research work for a Stanford 491 00:28:35,779 --> 00:28:35,250 professor and he introduced me to one of 492 00:28:39,349 --> 00:28:35,789 the 493 00:28:42,310 --> 00:28:39,359 great innovators in computer science who 494 00:28:46,909 --> 00:28:42,320 was valet and who had just recently 495 00:28:48,710 --> 00:28:46,919 published his groundbreaking passport - 496 00:28:52,729 --> 00:28:48,720 magana mm-hmm 497 00:28:58,909 --> 00:28:52,739 in which he had he had pointed out the 498 00:29:03,200 --> 00:28:58,919 parallels between UFOs and traditional 499 00:29:06,710 --> 00:29:03,210 beliefs like in the fairy folk and in 500 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:06,720 other worlds that intersect with our own 501 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:12,450 and he opened the door to seeing UFOs 502 00:29:23,299 --> 00:29:16,970 not as space visitors but as something 503 00:29:28,940 --> 00:29:23,309 essentially human and once again I felt 504 00:29:32,690 --> 00:29:28,950 a certain new revelation a sense that a 505 00:29:36,710 --> 00:29:32,700 doorway into something tremendously 506 00:29:39,799 --> 00:29:36,720 exciting had opened I had read some 507 00:29:44,989 --> 00:29:39,809 years before Carl Jung's book on flying 508 00:29:47,239 --> 00:29:44,999 saucers but I really didn't understand 509 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:47,249 it at age 13 I don't know how you 510 00:29:52,909 --> 00:29:50,970 managed to understand Carl Jung and I 511 00:29:55,519 --> 00:29:52,919 didn't grasp the most essential thing 512 00:29:57,919 --> 00:29:55,529 about it which is that when you called 513 00:30:01,129 --> 00:29:57,929 UFOs a modern myth 514 00:30:03,649 --> 00:30:01,139 it wasn't trying to put them down quite 515 00:30:06,409 --> 00:30:03,659 the contrary he was trying to say boy 516 00:30:10,820 --> 00:30:06,419 these are important these are exciting 517 00:30:14,719 --> 00:30:10,830 these are myths by which Jung did not 518 00:30:17,509 --> 00:30:14,729 mean Blanc or nonsense but something 519 00:30:20,839 --> 00:30:17,519 tremendously significant a kind of 520 00:30:27,139 --> 00:30:20,849 collective dream of the human species 521 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:27,149 and I came through valet to see that 522 00:30:37,070 --> 00:30:33,690 Jung had a point and since then that's 523 00:30:40,719 --> 00:30:37,080 the line that I've operated on mm-hmm 524 00:30:43,970 --> 00:30:40,729 I've come to be to be convinced that the 525 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:43,980 ufologists are right about the most 526 00:30:50,970 --> 00:30:48,130 important thing that UFOs 527 00:30:53,730 --> 00:30:50,980 are tremendously significant that 528 00:30:57,480 --> 00:30:53,740 attention has to be paid to them they 529 00:31:05,670 --> 00:30:57,490 cannot be dismissed as nonsense or bunk 530 00:31:08,430 --> 00:31:05,680 or claptrap and in some ways the fact as 531 00:31:12,330 --> 00:31:08,440 I believe it to be that they have no 532 00:31:16,740 --> 00:31:12,340 physical existence makes them all the 533 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:16,750 more interesting they have a power that 534 00:31:29,700 --> 00:31:20,730 comes not from some other solar system 535 00:31:33,420 --> 00:31:29,710 but from who we are and the aspect of 536 00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:33,430 saying that that UFOs don't have a 537 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:35,770 physical existence 538 00:31:44,700 --> 00:31:39,130 I know drives a lot of of UFO 539 00:31:47,210 --> 00:31:44,710 researchers crazy so could you maybe you 540 00:31:50,340 --> 00:31:47,220 know try and I and I know I mean it's 541 00:31:53,490 --> 00:31:50,350 yeah we need two or three hours to 542 00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:53,500 really get into this discussion but I 543 00:31:59,450 --> 00:31:56,290 mean recent revelations say like the 544 00:32:02,760 --> 00:31:59,460 Navy films and things like that of 545 00:32:05,220 --> 00:32:02,770 purported UFOs seemed to show you know 546 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:05,230 some kind of actual physical objects so 547 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:09,450 if UFOs don't have a physical reality 548 00:32:16,910 --> 00:32:12,730 then what are we experiencing I mean is 549 00:32:20,430 --> 00:32:16,920 this you know you know like a archetype 550 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:20,440 from the collective human consciousness 551 00:32:25,310 --> 00:32:22,450 made into reality 552 00:32:27,930 --> 00:32:25,320 yeah funny um that's the same question 553 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:27,940 that at the end of his book he said well 554 00:32:33,060 --> 00:32:29,970 you know if they are psychic projection 555 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:33,070 then how come they appear on radar and 556 00:32:39,750 --> 00:32:36,970 how come they're photographed and I 557 00:32:44,220 --> 00:32:39,760 think it's possible to give answers in 558 00:32:51,300 --> 00:32:44,230 general terms to both questions hmm that 559 00:32:52,780 --> 00:32:51,310 the photographs are not let's say beyond 560 00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:52,790 question 561 00:33:00,160 --> 00:32:56,330 and if they are photographable it 562 00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:00,170 becomes a very good question which the 563 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:03,290 skeptics always ask how come with all 564 00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:09,770 the technical capacity we have now for 565 00:33:15,130 --> 00:33:11,930 taking photographs that everybody can do 566 00:33:17,860 --> 00:33:15,140 it with his or her telephone how come we 567 00:33:20,410 --> 00:33:17,870 don't have really good UFO photographs 568 00:33:25,630 --> 00:33:20,420 and to me that's an unanswerable 569 00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:25,640 question the radar that will radar you 570 00:33:31,210 --> 00:33:28,850 you can get false radar returns and it's 571 00:33:35,140 --> 00:33:31,220 very interesting that according to the 572 00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:35,150 report of the worlds that they the the 573 00:33:43,870 --> 00:33:39,770 UFOs that were picked up in in in 2014 574 00:33:48,250 --> 00:33:43,880 and 2015 that they appeared after a new 575 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:48,260 radar system had been installed as it is 576 00:33:53,980 --> 00:33:51,170 if this is a glitch of the new system 577 00:33:56,980 --> 00:33:53,990 now I offer this only as a very 578 00:34:00,160 --> 00:33:56,990 tentative gas I don't know what people 579 00:34:04,330 --> 00:34:00,170 were experiencing I don't know what they 580 00:34:07,930 --> 00:34:04,340 were photographing but I do not think 581 00:34:10,659 --> 00:34:07,940 that this is enough to establish that 582 00:34:13,240 --> 00:34:10,669 we've got visitors that at most what it 583 00:34:16,540 --> 00:34:13,250 establishes is that there are very odd 584 00:34:20,409 --> 00:34:16,550 things happening in the sky and we don't 585 00:34:24,669 --> 00:34:20,419 know what they are sharp charles fort 586 00:34:27,909 --> 00:34:24,679 came up with four huge books with 587 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:27,919 nothing but reports that he had jotted 588 00:34:35,500 --> 00:34:31,810 down from scientific journals and from 589 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:35,510 early newspapers you have odd things i 590 00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:38,330 mean that i mean the classic 40 an event 591 00:34:45,070 --> 00:34:41,690 is the fall of fish or tadpoles from the 592 00:34:47,950 --> 00:34:45,080 sky and i don't know if we can give an 593 00:34:50,230 --> 00:34:47,960 explanation for any of them the one 594 00:34:54,890 --> 00:34:50,240 thing that seems clear is that they're 595 00:35:01,040 --> 00:34:58,400 the one fascinating thing about the 596 00:35:07,270 --> 00:35:01,050 whole UFO phenomena and this really does 597 00:35:10,070 --> 00:35:07,280 seem to go with your suggestions is how 598 00:35:13,460 --> 00:35:10,080 human it actually is 599 00:35:17,090 --> 00:35:13,470 I mean you when people report these 600 00:35:19,580 --> 00:35:17,100 sightings they report a lot of times you 601 00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:19,590 know structured craft I mean the 1950s 602 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:24,090 they almost look like cars that were 603 00:35:28,130 --> 00:35:25,650 very popular they had a lot of time you 604 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:28,140 some of these UFOs even had fins like 605 00:35:34,430 --> 00:35:31,410 some of the popular cars the the 606 00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:34,440 occupants generally always are described 607 00:35:41,380 --> 00:35:37,050 as very human looking I mean even the 608 00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:41,390 ones that are humanoid still have human 609 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:43,890 characteristics two eyes two legs two 610 00:35:50,380 --> 00:35:46,610 arms something you really wouldn't think 611 00:35:55,270 --> 00:35:50,390 would happen if we were being visited by 612 00:35:59,720 --> 00:35:55,280 a race of means that evolved on a planet 613 00:36:03,740 --> 00:35:59,730 light-years away absolutely and and the 614 00:36:06,770 --> 00:36:03,750 the description of these beings changes 615 00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:06,780 from decade to decade I mean our current 616 00:36:13,820 --> 00:36:10,890 image of the grey you know with you know 617 00:36:17,930 --> 00:36:13,830 the light bulb shaped head and the 618 00:36:22,100 --> 00:36:17,940 enormous oval eyes that that was unknown 619 00:36:25,460 --> 00:36:22,110 before January 9th of 1987 when Whitley 620 00:36:28,610 --> 00:36:25,470 Strieber published communion and that 621 00:36:32,350 --> 00:36:28,620 picture on the cover of communion sent a 622 00:36:36,890 --> 00:36:32,360 book flying into the bestseller charts 623 00:36:43,430 --> 00:36:36,900 or we could point to the to the airship 624 00:36:45,170 --> 00:36:43,440 of an 1896 1897 that that over I will 625 00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:45,180 say all over the country initially in 626 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:47,490 California and then moving to the 627 00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:50,090 Midwest there were sightings of these 628 00:36:57,700 --> 00:36:54,810 dirigible shaped objects apparently by 629 00:37:00,950 --> 00:36:57,710 reliable people and some people 630 00:37:04,190 --> 00:37:00,960 including one rabbi as claimed to have 631 00:37:05,990 --> 00:37:04,200 actually met the pilots only they 632 00:37:09,410 --> 00:37:06,000 weren't 633 00:37:11,330 --> 00:37:09,420 small creatures from other galaxies they 634 00:37:16,070 --> 00:37:11,340 were American inventors with an odd 635 00:37:20,030 --> 00:37:16,080 tendency to be named Wilson now it seems 636 00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:20,040 clear that the that the airship of 1896 637 00:37:27,140 --> 00:37:24,690 1897 was a reflection of the technology 638 00:37:30,230 --> 00:37:27,150 or the the technology that was just 639 00:37:32,570 --> 00:37:30,240 about to be developed in at the end of 640 00:37:39,220 --> 00:37:32,580 the 19th century so I think it's 641 00:37:46,609 --> 00:37:42,800 descriptions the forms that the UFOs 642 00:37:54,130 --> 00:37:46,619 take are reflections of what's going on 643 00:37:57,800 --> 00:37:54,140 in in human society it used to be 644 00:38:02,330 --> 00:37:57,810 centuries ago people believed in angels 645 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:02,340 and demons and there were lots of 646 00:38:11,589 --> 00:38:06,810 reports of personal experiences with 647 00:38:15,140 --> 00:38:11,599 these types of beans now people don't 648 00:38:19,550 --> 00:38:15,150 most people don't believe in those sort 649 00:38:21,710 --> 00:38:19,560 of things though most people now instead 650 00:38:24,620 --> 00:38:21,720 they believe that there could be the 651 00:38:26,870 --> 00:38:24,630 possibility of extraterrestrial life and 652 00:38:32,060 --> 00:38:26,880 lo and behold that's what we're seeing 653 00:38:35,300 --> 00:38:32,070 yeah and I would put it a little bit in 654 00:38:37,790 --> 00:38:35,310 almost the same way that each each 655 00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:37,800 generation each culture has its own 656 00:38:45,589 --> 00:38:42,170 conventional ization of the unknown and 657 00:38:48,710 --> 00:38:45,599 are saying they are visitors from other 658 00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:48,720 planets is just as much a conventional 659 00:38:58,690 --> 00:38:53,210 ization as saying that they're angels I 660 00:39:02,359 --> 00:38:58,700 do think there is some experience that 661 00:39:10,130 --> 00:39:02,369 underlies all of this an experience that 662 00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:10,140 people sense as being alien and my the 663 00:39:15,470 --> 00:39:12,690 the mystery that intrigues me it's 664 00:39:18,449 --> 00:39:15,480 precisely what that experience is and 665 00:39:21,909 --> 00:39:18,459 how it functions 666 00:39:27,459 --> 00:39:21,919 now Dave you mentioned that the the 667 00:39:29,979 --> 00:39:27,469 rabbi was one of the witnesses in a 668 00:39:35,609 --> 00:39:29,989 particular case and I know that you did 669 00:39:40,749 --> 00:39:35,619 study Judaism and and all is there 670 00:39:43,419 --> 00:39:40,759 outside of Ezekiel anything in biblical 671 00:39:46,749 --> 00:39:43,429 reference in the Old Testament or any 672 00:39:48,999 --> 00:39:46,759 other of the Jewish religious texts that 673 00:39:51,819 --> 00:39:49,009 would refer to something that you think 674 00:39:54,249 --> 00:39:51,829 might be a UFO nothing quite like 675 00:39:57,009 --> 00:39:54,259 Ezekiel but I'll tell you in one of 676 00:40:02,529 --> 00:39:57,019 Paul's letters he describes an 677 00:40:06,059 --> 00:40:02,539 experience of being snatched up and the 678 00:40:10,569 --> 00:40:06,069 Greek word can be used can mean abducted 679 00:40:13,929 --> 00:40:10,579 caught up into the third Evan and coming 680 00:40:18,549 --> 00:40:13,939 back with an implant they calls it a 681 00:40:21,039 --> 00:40:18,559 thorn of Satan in my flesh now don't 682 00:40:23,439 --> 00:40:21,049 misunderstand me here I'm not saying 683 00:40:28,779 --> 00:40:23,449 Paul was kidnapped by extraterrestrials 684 00:40:32,620 --> 00:40:28,789 I'm saying that Paul it's underwent a 685 00:40:36,279 --> 00:40:32,630 human experience that we have to I think 686 00:40:39,609 --> 00:40:36,289 call a religious experience that is 687 00:40:44,909 --> 00:40:39,619 comparable to the experience that people 688 00:40:48,329 --> 00:40:44,919 have when they remember being abducted 689 00:40:56,669 --> 00:40:48,339 when they remember coming away with 690 00:41:00,299 --> 00:40:56,679 implants also to Enoch that he'd not 691 00:41:03,809 --> 00:41:00,309 supposedly have some sort of out-of-body 692 00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:03,819 experience or travel to some other place 693 00:41:10,029 --> 00:41:07,130 yeah he describes how it's a really 694 00:41:12,429 --> 00:41:10,039 interesting story he described and he is 695 00:41:15,279 --> 00:41:12,439 not Enoch himself who I think never 696 00:41:18,219 --> 00:41:15,289 existed I mean he knock in the Bible 697 00:41:20,649 --> 00:41:18,229 lives he lived he was a great 698 00:41:23,229 --> 00:41:20,659 I think the great-grandfather of Noah he 699 00:41:25,389 --> 00:41:23,239 lived long before the flood but there 700 00:41:29,439 --> 00:41:25,399 was a Jewish literature that flourished 701 00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:29,449 around the second century BCE in which 702 00:41:34,820 --> 00:41:31,290 Enoch was like a science 703 00:41:39,290 --> 00:41:34,830 Action Hero a narrator and he describes 704 00:41:43,460 --> 00:41:39,300 how the Fallen Angels the angels who 705 00:41:46,370 --> 00:41:43,470 came down from heaven because they were 706 00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:46,380 driven mad by lust for the daughters of 707 00:41:54,500 --> 00:41:51,690 humans that they beg Enoch to reverse 708 00:41:57,110 --> 00:41:54,510 their journey go up to heaven and 709 00:41:59,810 --> 00:41:57,120 intercede for them and he takes their 710 00:42:02,780 --> 00:41:59,820 petition and he reads their petition 711 00:42:05,990 --> 00:42:02,790 until he falls asleep and then he says 712 00:42:09,590 --> 00:42:06,000 behold what does he say wins called me 713 00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:09,600 and lightning summoned me and I was 714 00:42:18,550 --> 00:42:14,850 carried up on the wind into heaven now 715 00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:18,560 there's no way to say that he's actually 716 00:42:25,100 --> 00:42:21,930 being given a ride on a spaceship 717 00:42:29,470 --> 00:42:25,110 because their heaven that he experiences 718 00:42:33,050 --> 00:42:29,480 is not outerspace as we think of it now 719 00:42:36,950 --> 00:42:33,060 but heaven as the ancient Jews thought 720 00:42:42,710 --> 00:42:36,960 of it as sort of like a dome over a flat 721 00:42:45,650 --> 00:42:42,720 earth but it does seem that the people 722 00:42:50,210 --> 00:42:45,660 who were writing these stories in Enochs 723 00:42:55,130 --> 00:42:50,220 name were able to imagine that kind of 724 00:42:58,330 --> 00:42:55,140 journey which can be compared to what 725 00:43:00,860 --> 00:42:58,340 the modern contactees imagined 726 00:43:02,150 --> 00:43:00,870 well now the car you mentioned the 727 00:43:06,530 --> 00:43:02,160 contactees 728 00:43:09,670 --> 00:43:06,540 and that's a I guess a something in 729 00:43:12,260 --> 00:43:09,680 ufology that that always fascinated me 730 00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:12,270 not so much because I believed in the 731 00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:15,090 stories of a Georgia damn skis and the 732 00:43:21,650 --> 00:43:18,330 others but they I think in in a sense 733 00:43:24,350 --> 00:43:21,660 though they were sort of responsible to 734 00:43:26,660 --> 00:43:24,360 some degree for bringing in interest in 735 00:43:30,140 --> 00:43:26,670 the space agent for us since these 736 00:43:31,820 --> 00:43:30,150 visitors could come from afar to here it 737 00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:31,830 would only seemed natural that we should 738 00:43:38,930 --> 00:43:35,690 be able to duplicate the their journeys 739 00:43:40,970 --> 00:43:38,940 do you see something mystical in the in 740 00:43:45,109 --> 00:43:40,980 these early contact these stories I 741 00:43:47,450 --> 00:43:45,119 don't know I mean the the quick end 742 00:43:51,499 --> 00:43:47,460 to say that identity was just a crook 743 00:43:53,630 --> 00:43:51,509 and a liar and he's supposed to at least 744 00:43:56,930 --> 00:43:53,640 quoted as saying that I never would have 745 00:44:00,890 --> 00:43:56,940 gotten into this flying saucer crap if I 746 00:44:03,410 --> 00:44:00,900 think he had some from some others some 747 00:44:06,980 --> 00:44:03,420 other impediment that kept him from 748 00:44:11,539 --> 00:44:06,990 making a living in other ways and yet in 749 00:44:13,849 --> 00:44:11,549 Jerry Clark in his UFO encyclopedia in 750 00:44:16,609 --> 00:44:13,859 the article on a damn ski bring down 751 00:44:21,529 --> 00:44:16,619 some evidence that Adamski seems to have 752 00:44:24,289 --> 00:44:21,539 had some some real belief in himself so 753 00:44:29,509 --> 00:44:24,299 I don't well he well we did find 754 00:44:31,999 --> 00:44:29,519 clippings going back as early as 1935 755 00:44:34,549 --> 00:44:32,009 that were published and like the the Los 756 00:44:37,519 --> 00:44:34,559 Angeles Times where he had actually 757 00:44:40,130 --> 00:44:37,529 started I guess with what would be we 758 00:44:42,470 --> 00:44:40,140 would refer today as a New Age commune 759 00:44:45,559 --> 00:44:42,480 and they were building a pyramid on the 760 00:44:49,009 --> 00:44:45,569 property and of course a years later he 761 00:44:51,319 --> 00:44:49,019 was at an organization the royal order 762 00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:51,329 of Tibet he claimed that he had been to 763 00:44:55,970 --> 00:44:52,890 the bed and of course we know he was 764 00:44:58,069 --> 00:44:55,980 never in Tibet his life perhaps by 765 00:45:05,059 --> 00:44:58,079 astral travel but certainly not by a 766 00:45:07,670 --> 00:45:05,069 physical journeyman and then in 1947 and 767 00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:07,680 we have our own edition of this he wrote 768 00:45:15,739 --> 00:45:11,249 a book called pioneers from space which 769 00:45:20,029 --> 00:45:15,749 some people say or Thawne was was Jesus 770 00:45:22,670 --> 00:45:20,039 in that book he claims to have met Jesus 771 00:45:25,519 --> 00:45:22,680 and later on Jesus may have become or 772 00:45:27,620 --> 00:45:25,529 Athan but I Tim and I worked on that 773 00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:27,630 book doing a little bit of editing and 774 00:45:32,930 --> 00:45:29,970 putting it together and I'm not sure 775 00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:32,940 that that's quite the the case and then 776 00:45:37,609 --> 00:45:34,650 there were some photographs even though 777 00:45:39,130 --> 00:45:37,619 Jim Mosley exposed a great deal of him 778 00:45:42,339 --> 00:45:39,140 there were some of the early pictures 779 00:45:44,509 --> 00:45:42,349 that were taken of the the background of 780 00:45:46,819 --> 00:45:44,519 spaceships supposed to spaceships 781 00:45:48,410 --> 00:45:46,829 against the moon and all where not only 782 00:45:51,259 --> 00:45:48,420 did he have some pretty good pictures 783 00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:51,269 but there were other witnesses present I 784 00:45:57,920 --> 00:45:54,930 mean as many as maybe at 12 or 15 people 785 00:45:58,910 --> 00:45:57,930 that watched these aerial displays but 786 00:46:00,920 --> 00:45:58,920 again you 787 00:46:02,630 --> 00:46:00,930 could be a contactee and not have a 788 00:46:04,069 --> 00:46:02,640 legitimate experience it happened to be 789 00:46:06,740 --> 00:46:04,079 at the right time it's the right place 790 00:46:10,700 --> 00:46:06,750 but then on the other hand are also some 791 00:46:13,609 --> 00:46:10,710 people who seem to be able to bring down 792 00:46:17,269 --> 00:46:13,619 these objects or materialize them we've 793 00:46:18,230 --> 00:46:17,279 done a book called the UFO repeaters the 794 00:46:20,990 --> 00:46:18,240 camera doesn't lie 795 00:46:23,089 --> 00:46:21,000 but you know we're running short on time 796 00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:23,099 here Dave so what why don't you tell us 797 00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:25,170 about what your plans are for the future 798 00:46:31,069 --> 00:46:27,450 you are all right working on another 799 00:46:35,109 --> 00:46:31,079 book apparently well the Stanford 800 00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:35,119 University Press is putting out my 801 00:46:43,450 --> 00:46:38,970 non-fiction book on UFOs the intimate 802 00:46:46,730 --> 00:46:43,460 alien the hidden story of the UFO and 803 00:46:52,250 --> 00:46:46,740 I've been for the past year and a half 804 00:46:56,740 --> 00:46:52,260 pretty working pretty single-mindedly on 805 00:46:59,299 --> 00:46:56,750 this and what what is what is the 806 00:47:01,039 --> 00:46:59,309 approach that you're in taking what can 807 00:47:02,230 --> 00:47:01,049 you kind of give away at this early 808 00:47:05,809 --> 00:47:02,240 stage 809 00:47:09,829 --> 00:47:05,819 okay well that UFOs are essentially a 810 00:47:14,089 --> 00:47:09,839 human phenomenon they are a religious 811 00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:14,099 phenomenon they are visitors not from 812 00:47:22,630 --> 00:47:18,930 outer space but from inner space which 813 00:47:25,849 --> 00:47:22,640 means inside my skull and inside yours 814 00:47:30,380 --> 00:47:25,859 where there's enough alienness to fill a 815 00:47:33,650 --> 00:47:30,390 universe and perhaps to take another 816 00:47:36,349 --> 00:47:33,660 step in direction of young that would be 817 00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:36,359 inside of your skull when the insides of 818 00:47:46,309 --> 00:47:42,650 mine are likely to draw on images and 819 00:47:48,859 --> 00:47:46,319 patta that we share with the rest of 820 00:47:52,730 --> 00:47:48,869 humanity well they are coming to get us 821 00:47:55,370 --> 00:47:52,740 I hear the the ending coming in here now 822 00:47:56,660 --> 00:47:55,380 and I want to remind people go to our 823 00:48:00,349 --> 00:47:56,670 YouTube channel 824 00:48:03,109 --> 00:48:00,359 mr. UFO secret files and they listen to 825 00:48:04,789 --> 00:48:03,119 the show on the kco our archives and 826 00:48:07,670 --> 00:48:04,799 thank you one and all and thank you Dave 827 00:48:10,990 --> 00:48:07,680 for being on our show it's nice to speak 828 00:48:17,470 --> 00:48:11,000 to you again after many many years 829 00:48:19,890 --> 00:48:17,480 thank you for having me veteran you've 830 00:48:24,240 --> 00:48:19,900 been listening to exploring the bazaar 831 00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:24,250 with hosts Timothy Becky panty Swartz 832 00:48:29,950 --> 00:48:27,050 they're taking back the night by jetting 833 00:48:32,020 --> 00:48:29,960 non-stop across the cosmos in search of 834 00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:32,030 the truly bizarre and totally 835 00:48:38,340 --> 00:48:35,650 unexplained with you as their combined 836 00:48:42,100 --> 00:48:38,350 Thursday nights at 7:00 p.m. Pacific 837 00:48:44,030 --> 00:48:42,110 10:00 p.m. Eastern on the kco our 838 00:48:46,610 --> 00:48:44,040 digital radio 839 00:48:49,910 --> 00:48:46,620 for more information on exploring the 840 00:48:52,790 --> 00:48:49,920 bazaar and hosts timothy Beckley and tim 841 00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:52,800 Swartz check out their kco our digital 842 00:49:01,460 --> 00:48:55,890 radio network follow their YouTube 843 00:49:12,500 --> 00:49:01,470 channel @m our UFO 11-hundred explore